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Rules Lawyering Destructive Wrath

RollPlay®: Court of Swords
#1

I can foresee this one coming up. Does the caster get to see if the targets save before deciding whether to use Destructive Wrath? Opinions on the matter appear to be mixed with decent arguments in each direction.

Does the caster not know if a target saved until they see the results of their spell, and thus would have no opportunity to change their spell effects before they are applied.

Or is it like attack rolls, where you first check to see if the effect ‘hits’ and then you roll damage afterwards, which in this case means getting to see who has saved before using destructive wrath. Does this also fit the wording in the book, where spells all specify that the target makes a save, and then afterwards specifies what the damage is depending on whether they pass or fail.

It might seem a pedantic point, but in the deadly world of CoS combat it could make a real difference.

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#2

To get everyone on the same level, Destructive Wrath is a Tempest Cleric skill that they get at level 2. (PHB p. 62)

"Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to wield the power of the storm with unchecked ferocity.

When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."

At least for me it seems pretty clear cut that to hit is thrown before the damage is rolled. So for ranged attacks that do damage after they hit, you would know if they hit or not before you use DW to max the damage. It becomes a bit harder to read the RAW of spells that have saving throws that alter the effect of the damage. Example from Shatter spell:

“A creature takes 3d8 thunder damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.” (PHB p. 275)

Wording would make you think that the save needs to be rolled before the damage is rolled as the damage is something that happens after the saving throw. Do the players get to act on rolls that can be made so that the players don’t see them? In CoS the players see most of the enemy rolls. Then again, the damage needs to be already happening when the enemies are going to resist it for one to know if they are going to resist it or not.

It’s also pretty common just to roll the damage and then everyone under the effect rolls the save. This is also true for players. A good example is poison damage that is halved by a saving throw. The players usually get to see how much they are taking poison damage before they decide if they want to use inspiration or any other means. This would mean that to be in line with every other saving throw that is triggered by damage you would use the DW before you see if they save or not.

In short, IMHO you get to roll to hit rolls before you activate DW, but to keep things working as they have been doing before one rolls the damage before they see the saving throws.

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#4

But doesn’t Destructive Wrath skip the damage roll and instead just make it maximum damage right off the bat?

Or are you just stating where the damage roll would be in order to clarify the sequence of events?

#5

DW does give you max rolled damage. The rule for DW references the act of rolling the dice to be the place when the skill is used. I use the words of rolling the damage as something that can then be replaced with maximum damage with the DW.

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#6

It’s definitely decided after we know it’s a hit. Look at the Paladin with Divine Smite, you got to choose to use it after you know it’s a hit.

#7

Well, that’s the point no one is actually wondering about.

The the thing the rules in this edition are not clear on is when the damage for a spell with a saving throw is rolled.
Phrasing of many spells would allow after seeing the save result.

#8

My bad that’s a good question. All the thunder/lightning type spells say you roll the save first so I think the answer is still the same. The DM rolls and then you decide if you want to use it.

Example spell:
Each creature must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d8 thunder damage and is pushed 10 feet away from you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage and isn’t pushed.

#9

Problem is, here the player decides when to max damage and knowing if your target, or how many targets, save is a clear case of optimization.

The wording now isreversed to how D&D used to be (roll damage then save), but the current entry for taking damage when hitting multiple targets with a spell is quite a bit more fluent, talking about rolling the damage and applying it to all targets. No order of operations given, but clearly seperating rolling damage from the save.

Also, some defensive class abilites and spells are basically written around the idea of you knowing how much damage you take, but those could often be used after a save as the timing is unclear.

It’s all around a GM judgment case.

#11

You can choose before or after the roll. There are quite a few variants of the “before” restriction in the game. Some like the light domain Cleric’s Warding Flare has to be used before the attacker hits OR miss. Alot of others have the “After, but before” restriction, such as Bardic Inspiration (alot of Bard abilities, actually), both War Cleric’s Channel Divinities, and the Lucky feat where you can decide before or after the rule, but before the results are revealed.

In other words, if it did have a restriction, it would match those examples in some way.

#12

On the other hand you have to frequentlky make bigger risk reward choices, for example casting an all or nothing spell in the first place.

No, DW is very clear on that you don’t roll if you max the damage.

#13

Well you wouldn’t want to use DW anyways if you did roll max damage so…

#14

Point is, you either roll and take what you rolled or use DW and max the damage without rolling.

#15

Actually reading the ability again, it does say instead of rolling, meaning either you roll or you don’t. I can see it both ways, as there’s plenty of other examples like I said of “before” or “after but before” restrictions, but RAW somewhat implies the “Before you roll” restriction. As far as I could find, there’s no errata or sage advice tweet that has an answer.

In either case, you’d be able to see how many targets save before you roll damage (as per order of events on the spell), so it might all just play out the same.

#16

You should choose to Destructive Wrath after the Saves/Attack Roll, but before damage. It replaces the damage roll so you can’t decide you don’t like your damage roll and then toss out your power. The only thing I think that really does that is Empower Spell.