itmeJP Community

Ice_poseidon Ban and IRL streaming

(banned) #21

That's my point.

You can't. You just have to be careful about it.

It seems like an inherit risk of IRL streaming, people can (provided they're smart enough or just know) figure out where you are physically.

He didn't do himself any favors by telling his stream the information that he did in the airport. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

(RaevnEldaer) #22

They asked that looks like terminal 5. He said(paraphrasing): Terminal 5? I guess maybe.. Ye, ok terminal five. Whats the worst you could do anyways.

THen you see him realizing what he said and he says probably shouldn't say that.

Not that what i'm about to say has any relevance for twitch directly, but for the sake of argument, he is irresponsible, he has adhd and some issues. He's impulsive. From someone familiar with these kinds of issues, someone knowledgeable from twitch should've had his back a long time ago or perma banned him ages ago to prevent a very predictable situation which has occurred because of his rising fame since IRL got launched.

(RaevnEldaer) #23

But in the current environment no one is 'smart' or 'careful' enough for it to be worth the risk if twitch is just going to take away you livelihood for random unspecified incidents. This is what they have a TOS for. I mean to you think ItmeJP would go IRL streaming and risking his channel when the TOS is so vague on the subject and the risks involved are this high?

(It's Alive, It's Alive, IT'S ALIVE!!!!) #24

The problem as I see it is that even though you are not doing anything "wrong", you know that some people on the internet don't respect Wheaton's law (Dont be a dick, by it's ok to play one on tv). You know that some people will go out of their way to abuse what ever information you provide just to fuck up your day.

We do not know how many times Twitch asked them or to say where they were streaming from. If twitch has been asking them for a month "don't mention where your streaming from", and he then goes on to give that information willingly then he is going against those who are trying to help him, those trying to make sure their platform isn't used for shit like this and are feeding right into the internet fuckwads. How many times can you as a platform allow it to happen before you have to take action, even if that means inviting the streamer to no longer be a streamer on your platform?

Even though you are not doing anything technically wrong do you need to be held accountable to the harm those actions may be putting others in?

As SirScoots has brought up before (just a few weeks ago ) how long will it be before someone is harmed or worse live on stream? What actions should twitch take to protect the streamer and those around them? what actions should the streamer take to protect themselves and those around them?

My personal opinion on the matter is JP should hold off having him on the shows as he person in question has stated they are going to appeal their ban, having them on stream may do them more harm (in terms of there appeal) then good atm.

Twitch also have a rule about "presence on another user's account" when you are banned, that might just be Twitch covering themselves in case where people say "oh I'm just a host, xyz actually own the channel." and a "news appearance" shouldn't fall under that rule but it would be something that would need to be cleared up before any appearance from the streamer could happen. Don't want JP getting into shit over it.

(RaevnEldaer) #25

I agree fully with your points. But I've been following all of this for a while. He's been banned and taken steps due to his viewer base before, but after the IRL section it's just escalated much more quickly than he can be expected to control without help and still be able to stream enough to earn money.

He streamed games for two years actually, but it made him depressed only staying inside and playing games. That's not what he wants to do. And now that twitch has their IRL section he shouldn't have to be forced into playing video games in fear of Random assholes on the internet.

He posted this a bit earlier talking about it, and how twitch have communicated/not communicated with him regarding all this.

You might be right about it being problematic to have him on the show, but maybe have someone like Djwheat come on to talk about, or someone in twitch who have talked with paul on the subject.

(banned) #26

As for the "Taking away his livelihood" argument. Isn't Twitch at will employment?

Aren't they allowed to remove you for whatever reason they see fit?

(RaevnEldaer) #27

Yes, but one would hope twitch supports you and has your back, unless you blatantly are in violation of the rules. Of course in all bans there are two sides two a story and a lot of gray areas about the specific person being banned, and in the end like you said they can remove you for any reason.

But is that the kind of platform twitch should be regarding their own responsibilities(not necessarily only the legal ones I mean)you cannot say its Ice_poseidons fault.

He didn't leak the information, he responded to the information presented to him. Besides, like someone mentioned earlier, nowhere in the TOS does it say you can't reveal your location.

(banned) #28

Twitch is an employer. You can hope all you want, but at the end of the day they have a business to run.

I can say it is partially his fault, because he let this part of his community foster, and he gave out that sort of information apparently.

He did to leak information. He responded to the question to which he didn't have to say anything. He confirmed information that was easily used to harm him.

And ok, that means that Twitch wants you to be careful about revealing that information pretty obviously, because then you might not get swatted.

(Twitch: Bitghost_) #29

Twitch has no obligation to "have your back". Just as many employers around the world don't really care about their employees. Twitch can also permanently shutdown any channel for any reason. I think IRL is a new frontier for Twitch and it's something they have to be VERY careful about. Now that they are owned by Amazon, Amazon have about $1 BILLION dollars they are looking to make back and more so keeping control as tight as possible is their priority to ensure Twitch is seen as an appropriate platform for advertisers whilst attracting new content creators. The type of content that Ice was cultivating isn't what Twitch wants or should want.

I watched some of that stream right before he got on the plane, he was sitting at the gate and he said "I'm here at this gate, waiting for this flight, blah blah it would suck if someone did something stupid" and then looked into the camera slyly. He is literally asking for this type of behavior because he knows it gets him clips and shares and makes his stream more "exciting" for his usual viewers.

Twitch HAS to be firm in letting these growing IRL streamers know that they can't just go out in public, wearing Twitch branding, causing a ruckus and just being an annoyance in general. When you walk around with Twitch hoodies on you are representing the brand and Twitch has every right to curb that shit before it catches on that if you stream IRL and cause shit or condone swatting/calling businesses to enable drama on-stream you can get big like Ice. Protecting streamers isn't Twitch's responsibility, it's the streamers responsibility to ensure they are not endangering themselves or others to get views/subs. That's common sense.

(RaevnEldaer) #30

I think they need to take a big official talk on this, overhaul their TOS or just end IRL section on twitch. This is Doomed to happen again with someone else, and someone might be harmed. THAT'S why I think this need to be discussed, not only because of a Ban. Sure they might remove him from the platform. But that doesn't solve the problem. Especially if they've just incentivized his insane community to swat streamer till they get banned.

But not having been aware of the situation and seen it evolve I perfectly understand how that's your viewpoint.

Do you atleast agree it's worth discussing on a talk show about twitch, like dropped frames?

(RaevnEldaer) #31

Thats your interpetation of how he reacted, I would disagree knowing the full context, but whatever. EVEN if I agreed with that and if they Permban him, they need to fix their TOS and IRL section or remove it so no one gets harmed or killed in the future.

(Twitch: Bitghost_) #32

So you mean update the TOS to say that if you stream IRL you can't give out your location? If so then you may as well not stream IRL out on the streets because anyone with half a brain can figure out where you are. I mean I guess they could be super careful about where they are heading but that seems like a lot of work. I wonder if Twitch had any idea people would stream like this when IRL was introduced? I figure they expected like...eating streams, chatting with your subs, mostly stuff that is still done inside at your PC. I agree they should probably say "you have to keep your location secret and never give hints or confirm you are at a certain place or going somewhere" but how do you stop the trolls from figuring it out on their own? What if you were as careful as possible but some random troll recognized the inside of some restaurant and called it to cause shit? Definitely some interesting conversations happening at Twitch right now, that's for sure.

(RaevnEldaer) #33

Another thing, sorry. But there's Never been a problem with his Content. Whatever you believe he was cultivating, I would say a group of people watching him have cultivated this behaviour. He could've done more to prevent it, but he has only discouraged the kind of behaviour which makes his community negative for twitch. But yeah, he should have better mods and addressed all of this better a long time ago. But I don't think that makes him liable for the stupid shit his community does against his wishes.

(banned) #34

Sure it's worth discussing, it's related to twitch, that's what DF is for.

(RaevnEldaer) #35

So you mean update the TOS to say that if you stream IRL you can't give out your location? If so then you may as well not stream IRL out on the streets because anyone with half a brain can figure out where you are.

EXACTLY! That's why it needs to be addressed.

I wonder if Twitch had any idea people would stream like this when IRL was introduced?

They did. Cause he was already the biggest IRL streamer. He had to go around with food or iphone games so he didn't get banned for non gameplay related content. I think him alone is the reason they even started the IRL section

(It's Alive, It's Alive, IT'S ALIVE!!!!) #36

I don't expect anyone to "control it" by themselves, the internet can be a cesspool at times. Imo twitch does need to lay down some clear guidelines, but as a streamer some of the responsibility has to be on you. Don't give out anything you don't need too, sure mistakes will happen just don't do it willingly unless you are prepared for the results steaming from it.

Let's have a look at another issue Streamers and YouTubers face, "get togethers", if you just dropped into a coffee shop and told the Internet "hey I'm at XYZ, come and have a coffee with me" then people will come expecting to have a coffee with you. But unless you have sought permission from the person running that coffee shop you are really going to piss them off, they won't be expecting an high number of customers, they will be understaffed and customers including there regulars will have a negative experience of your coffee shop. The stream may think "what's the problem? I didn't nothing wrong, that guy should be grateful for the extra business I brought him...". And that's if no one is being a dick. The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory means that given the anonymity provided to them by the internet even normal, well adjusted people may display anti social behaviour so the chances are you are going to attract dicks. Should the world be like this? Of cause not, but sadly we should expect it and in an effort not to harm others plan for it. So that "get together", you feel the waters, get permission of the host of what you hope is a reasonably sided place before giving away your location.

Turning up to a location out of the blue and giving away its location when you have a very sizeable following is going to cause the same issues as the meet up as above but with the added effect that it's being broadcast live (so those fuck wads get instant gratification) and recorded (so they can relive that high over and over).

They only control the streamer has is seeking permission of others who they may end up causing to have a bad day (the location they are in for example) and restricting the information they give out online. I've found (cause it's what people do in the tech world) it's easier to ask for forgiveness then permission so people do it anyways and at times (not always but at times) get pissed off because those they didn't seek permission off get pissed off at them.

Personally, I don't expect the streamer to control 100% of the situation around them (what would be a meet trick for anyone who can), but I do expect them to take some measures to to protect themselves and those around them. Sure that means not streaming all the time and less spontaneous streams. But we have to also think of others around us too.

It's a difficult subject, but all good thought provoking ones tend to be.

(RaevnEldaer) #37

This is all soo true. This is why I think twitch needs to be careful, and handle and discuss this properly. IRL streaming could be a great thing and a huge source of income and viewers that are not from game communities.
But it could also be a failed experiment or worse some bad could happen that can harm twitch just as much as the streamers in question.

There needs to be clearer guidelines...
And it's sad that Ice_poseidon needs to martyr himself for those rules to be set. He doesn't deserve that.
Before they figure out how to handle future situations like this I dont think its fair of them to remove him permanently from twitch.

(RaevnEldaer) #38

Just to make you guys understand a bit more how hard he is harassed by these people. He can walk down any random streets. And shop owners from across the street will run over and say he has important phone calls. Sometimes he just stands somewhere for too long and you can hear nearby coffee shops getting called over and over. It's not like he intentionally does this. It just happens whatever he does. Even off stream a good deal of the time.

(banned) #39

Does he do anything to discourage these people besides saying stop?

(RaevnEldaer) #40

Yes, he has posted long videos. Had discussion. Extremely ban heavy on racism and call ins and stuff. He hates it, and sadly he sort of hates his chat because of it, he doesn't really trust his viewer base much anymore. And he and his better mannered community have been pushing hard in trying to remove this sort of behaviour. It was getting better. But there is this small hacker bunch who have gone out of there way the last month in trying to ruin him I guess. They swatted him before. And I think they're the ones that called a place he was going to and said a guy with a camera and a gun is coming to shot up the place. The restaurant owner ruined is camera and threw him out. And now the plane thing